Why Commercial Trike EAA

The following is my post at EAA 360 and provides insite and ideas on this new pilot certificate

Commercial Trike Pilot Certificate needed
Posted By:
Paul Hamilton
Posted: 7/1/2010 16:15:21

Now that the sport pilot/LSA was been around for a while, we need a commercial trike licence (or weight-shift control certificate as the FAA calls it) for compensation and hire. This way we could provide tours, inspect utility lines, crop dusting, fly cargo to land in small areas like helicopters – the list goes on, use your imagination. Another practical use for light sport aviation which the EAA has put so much work into. It is part of the “green movement” to offer more efficient aviation services, less fuel used for similar operations.

They have commercial pilot licenses for airplanes, balloons, airships, helicopters, gyroplane, and gliders; why not trikes (OK and maybe powered parachutes).

It would have to be added to part 61 subpart F for pilots and part 91.327 to add commercial operations to S-LSA. The department of justice (law enforcement/cops) are doing this by using the trikes as public vehicles. Why not Trikes and PPC?

EAA wants to know what its members want, we want commercial operations for trikes. I wonder if S-LSA airplanes should be included in this movement?

Jon Wanzer
91
Posts10#2
Posted: 7/1/2010 17:04:13
Greetings Paul,

I have to agree with you. I can think of many commercial activities, mostly Part 91 flight operations, that could be started or shifted to lighter or different types of aircraft. Another change that could have a significant impact on light commercial GA would be a change/addition to the experimental certification of aircraft to allow Part 91 commercial operations for instruction and non-carriage missions. This would clean up many of the woes in the UL community. Both would be beneficial by encouraging light commercial GA and bringing in new blood.

~Jon

FlyBoyJon ✈ Aviator, builder, and tool junkie ✈ jon@FlyBoyJon.com ✈ www.FlyBoyJon.com ✈ NAA EAA VAA WBA IAC AOPA NAFI

Bill Berson
109
Posts20#3
Posted: 7/1/2010 19:40:12
Paul,

Ultralights and Special Light Sport Aircraft cannot be used for commercial operations. This makes promotion rather difficult as no one can offer rides at the local airport. This restriction does not apply to sport parachute operations (or gliders or balloons).

A related discussion is here:http://www.oshkosh365.org/ok365_DiscussionBoardTopic.aspx?id=1235&boardid=147&forumid=520&topicid=4195

Abid Farooqui
1
Post1#4
Posted: 7/1/2010 22:29:33
As the company president whose trikes are being used by DOJ, I completely and passionately agree.

Commercial license uses are already there for tourist flights in Hawaii to low flights for monitoring pipelines to marking GPS for search and rescue … hell even Mexican drug cartels are using trikes to smuggle 400 pounds of drugs on a trike flying across the border below the radar.

It would be great to provide a trike commercial license, a legal clean way of doing many things to not only government agencies but also private businesses.

While we are at it, why not have S-LSA airplanes also be allowed to be used for commercial day VFR operations they are suitable for. After all, Cessna 152’s whose sheet metal will fall off if I punched them are being allowed to be used for commercial operations as well as primary training. Where is the logic in that?

Best,

Abid

Gary Berdeaux
1
Post0#5
Posted: 7/2/2010 07:24:17
Hi Paul/All,

Count me in for support of a Commercial Trike license! For MANY years farmers and ranchers in Australia have used trikes for everything from inspecting fencelines to crop dusting. Today’s modern 912 powered trikes are not the same old dog and pony show, fat 103 exception training aircraft they used to be. These machines are MUCH safer and more capable. A commercial ticket for tirkes is LONG OVERDUE!!! As a professional graphic design artist and photographer I would LOVE to be able to use my trike for offical aerial photography work. The trike planform is for me the PERFECT aircraft for such use. I don’t have to unbolt doors and then shoot through a narrow slot to avoid aircraft structure. Trikes are unemcumberd by cockpit for sure. Besides, how many aging Cessnas have a BRS recovery system onboard?

Gary Berdeaux
Light Sport Weight-Shift Control PIlot
Aircraft: Pegasus Q912 – N68ST

Paul Hamilton
7
Posts1#6
Posted: 7/2/2010 08:25:36
Bill Berson wrote:

Paul,

Ultralights and Special Light Sport Aircraft cannot be used for commercial operations. This makes promotion rather difficult as no one can offer rides at the local airport. This restriction does not apply to sport parachute operations (or gliders or balloons).

A related discussion is here:http://www.oshkosh365.org/ok365_DiscussionBoardTopic.aspx?id=1235&boardid=147&forumid=520&topicid=4195

Bill just so you understand, yes per FAR 103.1 (b) ultralights are for sport or recreational purposes only, no training or hire commercial operations.

Also note that in my discussion above I am speaking about Powered Parachutes (PPC) which the FAA defines in Title 14 (FAR) §1.1 as: Powered parachute means a powered aircraft comprised of a flexible or semi-rigid wing connected to a fuselage so that the wing is not in position for flight until the aircraft is in motion. The fuselage of a powered parachute contains the aircraft engine, a seat for each occupant and is attached to the aircraft’s landing gear. You can find more information on this at: http://ppcpilot.beasportpilot.com/ I am not as interested in these but they have their place.

However Part 91 allows commercial operations (training or hire) per §91.327 for S-LSA trikes and PPC . No we cannot offer rides but can offer introductory/discovery flight lessons which are much better than rides because the student gets to fly the aircraft and learn something. This is a great way to get people started into aviation.

§ 91.327 Aircraft having a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category: Operating limitations.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category for compensation or hire except—

(1) To tow a glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle in accordance with §91.309 of this chapter; or

(2) To conduct flight training.

The discussion here is to allow a commercial certificate for trikes (and maybe Powered Parachutes LSA as described above)

Hopefully these FAA regs will clear this up.

Bill Berson
109
Posts20#7
Posted: 7/2/2010 12:01:16

Bill just so you understand, yes per FAR 103.1 (b) ultralights are for sport or recreational purposes only, no training or hire commercial operations.

Well, that was my point. Ultralights were used for rides from about 1982 to 2004. Not anymore, the industry collapsed.

The Special Light Sport rule of 2004 was supposed to help promote aviation entry but SLSA does not allow commercial rides either.

Without commercial tour operations to supplement instruction at the affordable entry level of FAR103 or SLSA level, it is hard to justify starting an airport business using these aircraft. So aviation just dies because somebody decided that commercial operations with experienced pilots is prohibited. It doesn’t make any sense. Even an airline transport pilot cannot operate an SLSA for tours. Calling a ride “introductory instruction” just to skirt the law is not a way to run a proper business? The customers that will take a scenic ride outnumber those that want a flight lesson at least 10 to 1.

You want a commercial Light Sport certificate. I agree.

But it should be for fixed wing also, not just trikes.

Bill

Paul Hamilton
7
Posts1#8
Posted: 7/2/2010 14:32:44
Bill Berson wrote:
You want a commercial Light Sport certificate. I agree.

But it should be for fixed wing also, not just trikes.

Bill

Bill I appreciate your endorsement. The objective here is to get support from EAA members to make this a high priority and get peoples feelings on fixed wing being included and your opinion on this is clear.

Thanks,

Paul

Ken Nussear
1
Post0#9
Posted: 7/15/2010 07:49:19
I agree with Paul 100%. I’m a wildlife biologist, and there are MANY ways that commercial operation of light sport aircraft could aid in my work. For example, areal photography, tracking animals via radio telemetry, areal surveys for plants and animals. All of these activities would made more affordable and possible from remote sites where I work due to the portability and affordability of light sport aircraft. In my case a trike, but other types would prove equally useful.

Martin Dudeck
1
Post0#10
Posted: 5/11/2011 12:56:25
I just now came across this thread. I agree that commercial use of trikes should be made possible. I work in television, and the trike would make a perfect, low cost platform for aerial videography.

It looks like it has been about a year since the last post on this thread. Has there been any progress made in this endeavor?

Paul Hamilton
7
Posts1#11
Posted: 5/27/2011 09:23:22
Actually there has been new interest lately so maybe we will see some movement.

B Alvarius
1
Post0#12
Posted: 5/27/2011 11:04:32
Weight shift control LSAs are uniquely suited to a number of applications that fall under commercial operations. As mentioned in previous posts weights shift control aircraft are excellent platforms for aerial photography and videography. In addition, the Rangeland Resources Research Unit of the USDA currently utilizes light sport aircraft for resource monitoring and testing. The speed envelops available with a weight shift control aircraft combined with their maneuverability make them attractive tools in a number of applications.

Matt Liknaitzky
1
Post0#13
Posted: 5/27/2011 15:35:27
Yes, there is Commercial Balloon and Commercial Glider – why not trikes?. There are many commercial uses for WSC trikes and there is no reason there should not be a Commercial certificate available for this category.

Trikes could be used for many things such as search and rescue, farming, game counting, livestock and fence monitoring, pipeline monitoring, transportation to remote areas.

Matt

Thomas Nielsen
1
Post0#14
Posted: 5/29/2011 15:09:17

Thanks for raising the topic Paul – I too believe the LSA aircraft has great potential with a commercial “endorsement” aside from instruction/rental. With strapped county/state and federal budgets in the coming years I can see LSA as a much cheaper alternative to small choppers caring out various inspection or surveiliances duties for agencies or private entities.

Why should you be able to fly commercially in a 1975 C-172 and not in a BRS equipted, glas cockpit REVO trike as an example ?

Everybody in the LSA community, from sunday pilots to potentially commercial operators would bennefit once money begins to flow into what would be an emerging GA submarket: Research and development, more products, better training etc.

By the end of the day, I believe one of the best arguments is bang for buck in an economy of slow growth and cash strapped local goverments and federal agencies.
hanks for raising the topic Paul – I too believe the Trike has great potential with a commercial “endorsement” aside from instruction/rental. With strapped county/state and federal budgets in the comingThanks for raising the topic Paul – I too believe the Trike has great potential with a commercial “endorsement” aside from instruction/rental. With strapped county/state and federal budgetsThanks for raising the topic Paul – I too believe the Trike has great potential with a comm
Thanks for raising the topic Paul – I too believe the Trike has great potential with a commercial “endorsement” aside from instruction/rental. With strapped county/state and federal budgets in the coming years I can see the trike as a much cheaper alternative to small choppers caring out various inspection or surveiliances duties for agencies or private entities.

Why should you be able to fly commercially in a 1975 C-172 and not in a BRS equipted, glas cockpit REVO ?

Everybody in the Trike community, from sunday pilots to potentially commercial operators would bennefit once money begins to flow into what would be an emerging GA submarket: Research and development, more products, better training etc.

While not quite on subject, I will even go as far as saying, that if current high-end trike builders would target a market outside the trike community, there could be the potential for turning some of our retirees from the Honda Goldwing into an airborne version – in particular if the highly engineered trike of today gets FAA approval as commercial aircraft and begins to be associated with commercial operations.
rcial “endorsement” aside from instruction/rental. With strapped county/state and federal budgets in the coming years I can see the trike as a much cheaper alternative to small choppers caring out various inspection or surveiliances duties for agencies or private entities.

Why should you be able to fly commercially in a 1975 C-172 and not in a BRS equipted, glas cockpit REVO ?

Everybody in the Trike community, from sunday pilots to potentially commercial operators would bennefit once money begins to flow into what would be an emerging GA submarket: Research and development, more products, better training etc.

While not quite on subject, I will even go as far as saying, that if current high-end trike builders would target a market outside the trike community, there could be the potential for turning some of our retirees from the Honda Goldwing into an airborne version – in particular if the highly engineered trike of today gets FAA approval as commercial aircraft and begins to be associated with commercial operations. in the coming years I can see the trike as a much cheaper alternative to small choppers caring out various inspection or surveiliances duties for agencies or private entities.

Why should you be able to fly commercially in a 1975 C-172 and not in a BRS equipted, glas cockpit REVO ?

Everybody in the Trike community, from sunday pilots to potentially commercial operators would bennefit once money begins to flow into what would be an emerging GA submarket: Research and development, more products, better training etc.

While not quite on subject, I will even go as far as saying, that if current high-end trike builders would target a market outside the trike community, there could be the potential for turning some of our retirees from the Honda Goldwing into an airborne version – in particular if the highly engineered trike of today gets FAA approval as commercial aircraft and begins to be associated with commercial operations.Thanks for raising the topic Paul – I too believe the Trike has great potential with a commercial “endorsement” aside from instruction/rental. With strapped county/state and federal budgets in the coming years I can see the trike as a much cheaper alternative to small choppers caring out various inspection or surveiliances duties for agencies or private entities.

Why should you be able to fly commercially in a 1975 C-172 and not in a BRS equipted, glas cockpit REVO ?

Everybody in the Trike community, from sunday pilots to potentially commercial operators would bennefit once money begins to flow into what would be an emerging GA submarket: Research and development, more products, better training etc.

While not quite on subject, I will even go as far as saying, that if current high-end trike builders would target a market outside the trike community, there could be the potential for turning some of our retirees from the Honda Goldwing into an airborne version – in particular if the highly engineered trike of today gets FAA approval as commercial aircraft and begins to be associated with commercial operations. years I can see the trike as a much cheaper alternative to small choppers caring out various inspection or surveiliances duties for agencies or private entities.

Why should you be able to fly commercially in a 1975 C-172 and not in a BRS equipted, glas cockpit REVO ?

Everybody in the Trike community, from sunday pilots to potentially commercial operators would bennefit once money begins to flow into what would be an emerging GA submarket: Research and development, more products, better training etc.

While not quite on subject, I will even go as far as saying, that if current high-end trike builders would target a market outside the trike community, there could be the potential for turning some of our retirees from the Honda Goldwing into an airborne version – in particular if the highly engineered trike of today gets FAA approval as commercial aircraft and begins to be associated with commercial operations.

dane hauser
1
Post0#15
Posted: 5/29/2011 15:48:57
I am on board and hope this issue picks up steam as there are many uses where a SLSA trike is the perfect tool. A close friend of mine in Mexico has the government contract to survey all power lines for the government run power company CFE. He is called in to survey after hurricane damage and also uses trikes for banner towing. He has a fleet of trikes spread out over Mexico as no helicopter or airplanes can compete with the low cost of operation that trikes give us.

I am concerned that the recent increase in trike accidents in Hawaii (which are being used for commercial operations) could make the FAA leery of broadening the use of trike but all of those accidents were caused by poor decision making and flying outside the safe operating limitations of trikes and had nothing to do with trikes being inherently unsafe. I’d argue that the recent crashes give reason for the additional training and tighter regulations that a commercial license would bring.

I truly hope the EAA jumps on board in support of a commercial license for WSC.

Regards,

Dane Hauser CFI

Todd Halver
1
Post0#16
Posted: 5/30/2011 09:11:29
I would like to add my support to the commercial trike license effort. Certifying WSC pilots at the commercial level will afford more opportunities for this unique light sport aircraft to provide benefits to pilots and industry. We can call it an FAA economic stimulus plan for light sport aircraft.

Todd Halver WSCL, Sport Pilot CFI

Robert Morrison
1
Post0#17
Posted: 5/30/2011 16:22:57
Outstanding……I would love to see the Weight Shift Control certificate be afforded the endorsement of commercial trike licence. I have the opprotunity to place company / flying school logos on my wing, however, with current regulations this is not possible to receive revenue from this venture. Also, having your service’s as a triker for hire for the local Fire and/or Police Departments would help generate funds which would allow me to upgrade my Weight Shift Control aircraft. This alone helps generate future sales within the aviation community.

Come now Trikers…….get onboard with Paul and let’s make this happen, this puts our community on the map with the big-boys who do this for a living……think of the future possibilities???

Antonio Castillo
2
Posts0#18
Posted: 5/31/2011 07:41:24

Modified: 5/31/2011 07:47:21

Antonio Castillo
2
Posts0#19
Posted: 5/31/2011 07:43:58
I support a commercial trike license for compensation and hire. Thanks for taking the initiative on this important issue.

Norman Bjornstad
1
Post0#20
Posted: 5/31/2011 17:48:21
Hi Paul, Thank you for bringing this subject up.

I would like to have my name added to the list of trike pilots who are in favor of a Commercial Weight Shift pilot certificate. There are so many uses (many already listed) that a trike could do as well and in some cases better than other category of aircraft.

Norman Bjornstad ASEL Comm/Instr, WSCL SP-CFI

www.Iflytrikes.com

This Post Has One Comment

  1. Yeah, anything that flies and is safe should be able to be used for commercial purposes. I just wonder if the FAA is concerned of the skies being too crowded or too many accidents happening. I’m not sure the safety records of these aircraft, but I think quick tours in open cockpit Quicksilvers, would be an amazing experience that people would love. If safety is an issue, certainly they could just add extra regulations, like requiring an airframe parachute system or a radar warning system.

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