Why Commercial Trike TPS

The following is discussion on this issue at Trike Pilot Social:

Commercial Trike license to expand triking. What is the best strategy?
Published by: Paul Hamilton on 27th May 2011 | View all blogs by Paul Hamilton
Now that the sport pilot/LSA was been around for a while, we need a commercial trike licence (or weight-shift control certificate as the FAA calls it) for compensation and hire. This way we could provide tours, inspect utility lines, crop dusting, fly cargo to land in small areas like helicopters – the list goes on, use your imagination. Another practical use for the efficient/green operations of light sport aviation. It is part of the “green movement” to offer more efficient aviation services, less fuel used for similar operations.

They have commercial pilot licenses for airplanes, balloons, airships, helicopters, gyroplane, and gliders; why not trikes (OK and maybe powered parachutes).

It would have to be added to part 61 subpart F for pilots and part 91.327 to add commercial operations to S-LSA. If we combined this to add S-LSA airplanes we might get the numbers with EAA to make it happen.

Yes we need EAA and AOPA to accomplish this. Back when I started a year ago I asked the EAA HOW to get their support. They said “generate discussion with enough participation of members at 360oshkosh and we will support it”. So this is exactly what I started but not enough trikers cared at the time, so because of lack of support from trikers it has not progressed. Here it is ready to go:

IT MUST BE NOTED THAT EAA HAS SHUT DOWN DISCUSSION ON THIS TOPIC

If we want to make this happen lets continue with what the EAA said will get their support. It comes down to numbers for EAA. How many of their members support it.

Now that I think about it, the best way to get numbers is to rally with S-LSA airplanes to change 91.327 for commercial operations. This must be part of the change needed for a commercial trike certificate.

Comments
23 Comments
by Abid Farooqui 8 months ago Guys, please create a simple log-in at 365 (EAA) and post an endorsement comment for commercial license for trikes. Even a couple of lines. Apathy is basically saying “no”.
by B Alvarius 8 months ago Done.

I would suggest pointing out what is being done with trikes currently (that might fall under a commercial operation) and the FAA will react. If they see pilots and aircraft engaged in activities they believe they should be regulating they will regulate. It is a simple reactive approach.

I would suggest creating a list of commercial activities and examples.
See this post for government activities that fall under commercial activities
http://theskygypsies.blogspot.com/2009/08/everybody-aerotrekks.html

by Jan Ferreira 7 months ago My question is: Say for instance you want to do crop-spaying and need a commercial license, who will train you for your commercial license and who will test you? There are so many commercial activities that could be done, how do you guys see the training to be done? Since having a CFI certificate is already a commercial activity shouldn’t that training be upgraded instead of creating another costly and bureaucratic regulation?..I am only asking.

by Abid Farooqui 7 months ago Hi Jan,
Pretty simple. A CFI who gets his own commercial license will be allowed to teach to commercial level. Same as Private WSCL training is currently done.
by Uwe Goehl 7 months ago Good on you, Paul & Abid, for trying to push this topic.

Some other countries (Costa Rica comes to mind) already have a Commercial certification level for pilots and I believe it will help raise both the popularity and safety level of Weight-Shift Control aviation. Trikes offer several interesting commercial opportunities and I think it is necessary to bring these in from the legal-interpretation fringes to the mainstream.
by Abid Farooqui 7 months ago Yes Uwe. I know you are not in the US but please do not hesitate to go to the EAA link above and write your thoughts about this subject there
by Thomas Nielsen 7 months ago Thanks for raising the topic Paul – I too believe the Trike has great potential with a commercial “endorsement” aside from instruction/rental. With strapped county/state and federal budgets in the coming years I can see the trike as a much cheaper alternative to small choppers caring out various inspection or surveiliances duties for agencies or private entities.

Why should you be able to fly commercially in a 1975 C-172 and not in a BRS equipted, glas cockpit REVO ?

Everybody in the Trike community, from sunday pilots to potentially commercial operators would bennefit once money begins to flow into what would be an emerging GA submarket: Research and development, more products, better training etc.

While not quite on subject, I will even go as far as saying, that if current high-end trike builders would target a market outside the trike community, there could be the potential for turning some of our retirees from the Honda Goldwing into an airborne version – in particular if the highly engineered trike of today gets FAA approval as commercial aircraft and begins to be associated with commercial operations.

Will comment on link provided, Thanks!

by Abid Farooqui 7 months ago 16 replies at EAA forum total for supporting commercial license. C’mon guys. You personally may not use commercial but there truly are many uses for trikes at commercial license level. Please create a login for the EAA365 forum quickly and put down a couple of lines supporting this move.
http://www.oshkosh365.org/ok365_DiscussionBoardTopic.aspx?id=1235&boardid=147&forumid=175&topicid=4746
by Dane HAUSER 7 months ago I joined it yesterday. It is worth it for all trike pilots to post there as it really will have a positive impact on all trikers. The more we can get these trikes out for the general public to see the more interest will be generated in our sport.

by Thomas Nielsen 7 months ago With reference to above post – I think this process is served additionally by not just looking at trikes as a sport but begin to treat and address this type of aircraft on 3 counts:

1) An Aircraft with significant commercial potential in the GA field due to much lower operating cost.

2) Sport / recreation

3) New market for the large amount of retiring babyboomers who really would like to fly but are unaware of the LSA license category and the level of trike engineering – still viewing the dream of flying as either A) Expensive and complicated B) Dangerous, while percieving the ultralight (cant differentiate to LSA) as a failure prone garage assembled build kit with a lawnmower engine.

….Hey how about 3 decked out REVO’s in a ferocious aerial futuristic combat scene….anybody who knows a Hollywood big wig 🙂

by Doug Boyle 7 months ago I know a little wig and I’m on it. Let’s get some ideas flowing as to the most interesting presentation to offer up.
by Uwe Goehl 7 months ago Well Thomas, that was my long-standing view of trikes (as failure-prone flying lawnchairs) until LSA came about and the FAA got involved in certification standards. Ah yes, and a good article in EAA’s Sport Aviation magazine.

I recognize that there exists a camp which feels that regulation of trikes has been a disaster, but in contrast, I view it as a potential boon to private flying as a safe, lower-cost alternative. Now . . . if only we could get trikes available to rent!
by John Olson 7 months ago There were zero Hawaiian disasters until the Feds got involved. Funny how that is overlooked huh?
by B Alvarius 7 months ago I do not believe the assertion has been overlooked just dismissed since correlation does not equal causation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation . If you believe there is a causal relationship then please explain your rational.

In light of your previous argument that locals were somehow involved by stating “I question what ia being done to determine ic the Kauai disasters were not due to sabotage. Even way back when I arrived there it was clear that trikes were unpopular. Plus there was competition too in recent years. Who is investigating this.as something other than an “accident”” combined with your stated distaste for the FAA why should anyone take this assertion seriously without supporting data?

by Jeff Messenger 7 months ago I spent several years trying to get a commercial certificate for several areas of trike usage here in the USA. I have an Airborne XT 912. We have a bilateral agreement with Australia. Their standards meet our standards. Their trikes and their pilots can get a commercial rating. So I discussed this with the FAA folks in Kansas city that are in charge of these type of things. They agreed with me but told me that no one was going to initiate that at this time. (2006) This was during the transition of two placed ultralights to E-LSA and LSA class. I called the FAA in washington and got referred to my local FAA field office at LAX. They told me that the dust would have to settle with the transition before even looking at something like that. They told me that the training syllabus would have to be written. I told them that there were plenty of trike pilots out there that had years of experience and would be glad to put it together for the FAA to look at. (People like Paul hamilton, Scott Johnson, etc.) (I just volunteered you guys!) Then they claimed they would have to come up with airframe certification processes. I talked to Edsel Ford, (yes that is his name,) in Oklahoma. He is the top guy at the FAA for airframe certification. This includes adding things to your airframe like cameras, sprayers, banners, towing hookups, etc. I was able to add my camera system to my aircraft after talking to the manufacture about the weight loading on the area I would mount it to, and since my aircraft is an E-LSA I just had to fly it around for 5 hours in a non-conjested area to have it legal. (and have it documented in your pilot logs and airframe log. With the exact wording the FAA wants you to use.) I also took the aircraft through all normal and emergency maneuvers, at a decent altitude, with the additional gear on to see if there were any flight characteristic changes. So I am ready!!! I am totally on board!! I think that with the economy the way it is and the fact that LSA aircraft can be used in so many ways, we should be allowed to have a business utilizing them. Plus they are great for search and rescue. We could pick up stranded people all day long in a flooded area. (with floats) And we can survey disasters at a much lower cost per hour then call in the expensive helicopters when we find injured folks that need medical transport or surface rescue. What can I do to help?
by Abid Farooqui 7 months ago Jeff, That’s great. Please go to the link posted in Paul’s blog above, click on it and create yourself a quick login at EAA’s Oshkosh365 and post your comments of support for commercial WSC pilot cert there and ask your trike friends and other pilots to do the same.

by George B 7 months ago Here is my post added to the EAA forum:

Please add my vote of support for a commercial license for trikes and other S-LSA aircraft as well.

With the many potential uses and the level of safety and well engineered aircraft that we enjoy today it just makes sense that a commercial license should be available.

Many modern day aviation pioneers have gone to great lengths paving the way to make this possible in much the same way as early aviation pioneers did. Trikes are a wonderful and unique form of aviation. Allowing commercial use of trikes and other S-LSA aircraft gives incentive to invest money in the development and sale of these great aircraft and professional training leading to even better safety and well trained pilots.

I strongly encourage EAA and FAA support and action to implement this important change. I believe this would be a great boost for aviation.

by Ken Nussear 7 months ago Hi Paul just saw on another forum that you posted this http://www.eaa.org/lightplaneworld/articles/1106_green_acres.asp
– thanks for your efforts to bring awareness to this topic.
by Uwe Goehl 5 months ago Oshkosh has come and gone . . . and I am wondering if there was any serious discussion during that time or any news on this topic?
by Paul Hamilton 12 days ago Here we go again. This commercial trike comes up about once a year. I have tried but we need an in the EAA. Who is the best to lead this effort with EAA????
by Tony Castillo 11 days ago Paul & Abid … In the EAA forum that thread has been archived and no new postings are accepted! can that be fixed?

by Tony Castillo 11 days ago when try to post it displays a message (that forum is archived) .. and directs to www.eaaforums.org. I wonder if the 360 @ EAA is no longer the forum place but instead is the eaaforums.org
TC

by Ken Nussear 11 days ago Yes they moved to a new forum software and all of the old stuff exists only as archives….
IS the EAA forum really the place to get the EAA behind it, or just a place where people ramble on. What if the EAA chapters started organizing… like the New Mexico, or New Havasu group. What’s the best avenue to get it moving?

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